UNLEASHED

Let me know what you think. Weight class belts? Just a lower ranking belt? What do you think?

Don't like a 'lower-ranking belt' because we're not a wrestling-format efed so I think it interrupts the vale-tudo mma feel.

I went with weight class, though I dunno if we should have three separate belts...  :P  I could see two?

Kore said pretty much what I said. I think 2 belts are plenty for now. If down the road we need the third one back then we can do that.

Alternatively to weight class, you could have a men's and women's class belt. That certainly occurs in boxing/mma.

not reeeeally gonna comment on that too much because i'm aware i'm biased... all i'll say is that if it encourages booking to hone in on booking m/m and f/f, it's gonna get old fast to me-- just like it does in regular efedding.

i'm thinking maybe a light-heavyweight belt or something of that nature

Another belt would give something for us that aren't quite there yet to aim for. While they aren't what most of us aim for, it's something to aim towards. But definitely not a "midcard" thing, that's very much a wrestling thing...

Oh boy, weight/gender divisions in feds. Some of you know how I feel about this. I'll try and keep this on topic.

First off, Unleashed has always been relatively thin on heavyweights compared to light heavyweights and below, so that would be my big concern there. Maybe it'd be better to drop the cutoff point down a bit, to say 180 or 190lbs.

Second, if it's weight/gender based, both titles need to be considered of equal value or interest in one starts to wane after a while (I realise that might contradict my previous point). The women's title or light title needs to get main events. I have every faith in Lisa's ability to book this way, just saying it's an important thing to remember with such things.

Really though the thing is, I'm not sure how much Unleashed needs a secondary title. Hell, I don't think we even need a main title, except as a plot device.

Taking a leaf from MMA, rather than another title, if there was going to be some sort of additional accolade to shoot for, what about one off tournaments?


EDIT: For a 'midcard' style title, rather than something wrestling-esque and Intercontinentally, I could maybe see it working as some kind of probationary championship whereby new characters fight within their own separate undercard circle with its own title, and once they're deemed ready, they graduate to the uppercard where they compete towards the big one. Again, that comes with its own logistical questions, but it's another option.

Styg makes some very good points. When we created Unleashed, we had three weight divisions and three titles. It was a little overkill. I never really thought of them as belts, anyway. Simply, that person is champion of that division, or as the case is now, the champion of Unleashed, and occasionally they are challenged.

I would love to do just tournaments, but it would take some effort to figure out a way to do it without excluding newcomers and allowing people to continue having fights after they are eliminated.

The way Bellator does their tournements, is each weight division has 8 fighters. They fight through three rounds, ending in a champion being crowned, which basically amounts to a big payday for that person.

What we could do is, every few events, make that event a standalone tournament. If we have eight fighters, they fight, then the four winners, fight, then the two winners, and at the end one is left standing after a bloody, terrible night. I don't think Lisa would want to do this every event, though.

I was thinking perhaps a middle-card title.

...

I got nothing else :-/

I think two weight classes would be a good idea, of course one person can still fight in the two divisions while only the heavy doesn't drop down.

Okay...I've stayed quiet until now, but I'll weigh in.

My opinion?  ...Why?

Seriously.  Why?  This place isn't really about titles.  If you're here for accolades or whatever you're probably here for the wrong reasons.  The one title is a nice way to reward writers who have been having a good run recently and sort of indicate to them that they're doing a good job.  But that's it really.

The point of this place is the RP's and the individual stories.  The matches just kind of there to keep the universe glued together, and none of us ever even use the fact we are/have been circuit champions in our rp's.  So I just don't see the point of artificially implementing another championship, whether by weight class or otherwise.

And while I know this place is often considered to be under an MMA style.  To me, with the setting and stories, it feels more like a crime/pulp fiction universe.  In my head, when I'm not reading results, I imagine the fights more like an action flick, unrealistic but cool, etc.  But that's probably just me.  Still ,that perception sort of makes the idea of titles even less relevant in my mind.

Just my 2 cents.  Take it, leave it, or pass it on.

The idea of titles was simple to play with that aspect of the game... the whole "reward" for doing a good job.... in which adding another belt would come into play. The proverbial carrot. I know most of us don't really give a crap about that and are more interested in writing the stories.

My final opinion is thus:

I think a weight class belt is the only way to add a second belt. That said, I prefer to not have belts at all. Currently, we have one person who is declared "Circuit Champion", something that should be in name only. That person gets benefits the other characters do not (I sort of hinted at that in one of my Blackbird chapters). The Champion, IMO, should be the Russians' pet fighter. That is until another fighter catches their interest and they try and screw the current champion out of the top spot. Why? Because the whole point, in character, is to make more money. The longer a guy is in the top spot, the less gambling profits are made because everyone starts to bet on that guy.

I think a good idea would be to re-work the championship page, ditch the way it is currently written and instead make it a rankings page. The in-character ranking could be based on the amount of money they bring in. Out of character, it isn't so much based on record as just general spot in fed. This would give someone who isn't necessarily ready to be at the top to have a goal. Maybe they are ranked 11th. If they one or two fights, maybe they crack the top ten. That is a much easier goal to accomplish than just flat out aiming for the top.

Anyway, there you go.

Definitely dig that idea. Can move the rankings off the roster page to the champs page... we'll chat more about this next time you're on MSN, Mike.

I love the idea of making a rankings page based on drawn money, since that is what will concern the Russian's most.  The only question is whether to make up numbers and rank people based on perceived standing in the circuit according to staff or create some sort of formula that would incorporate more than just straight records and give us some sort of objective numbers system.  Either way, it's a bit of extra work, but it would be an awesome touch.

So I like that idea.  Bonus points for Mike.

Working on a formula for it.

Dude, I fucking love Mike's idea.  :D 

It is a nice one.

hm.  in 21 we used to do points awarded for your individual piece, then averaged against your recent past.  *nods*  not that i'm saying anybody should care, particularly, just... something kinda similar worked for years for us, so it's possible?

and yeah, i like the idea, after having read it.  i think i do like the one "champion" put like that, it makes it feel more like a free-for-all, and the idea of being in the Russians' good graces is more motivating to both of my fighters mentally.  wouldn't normally count V in a conversation like this as he doesn't care about titles and i realized recently trying to write a bio that i don't even know how many titles he's had or their names anymore... but as much as a title makes Lilah perk, i think being favored by those running the Circuit and being bet on perks her more.

Even pushes storytelling in other directions. Dale wants to win and do well, yet at the same time he wants to stay under the radar. Suddenly finding himself the bosses' pet project is something he definitely wouldn't want so that adds intrigue in a way a regular title wouldn't. And I can't imagine he's the only fighter who feels that way.

Alex Collins would feel the same way.

I honestly think championships, titles and rankings should play more of a role in things. Yea, we're here to write but this is still set up in a competitive atmosphere where 2 people go head to head in and out of character.

head to head out of character?

yeah, except for that part where most of us work together out of character to do cooler shit in the big picture.  and that when it comes to caring about individual wins and losses i think i know more writers here who want to lose for the sake of their plots.

few of the characters even have in-character grudges.

we should really have a sign on the door here saying WARNING: THIS IS NOT AN EFED IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A STANDARD EFED ATMOSPHERE ALLOW ME TO DIRECT YOU TO CWCVERSE OR SOMETHING.

whether it's pro wrestling or e-wrestling, at the end of the day the belt is still a prop.  it may push green kids to improve, but really, if you're dull and can't carry a story without a belt then you'll probably still be dull and unable to carry a story with the addition of one.  for examples, see Jack Thhhhhwagga.

i think i do better in this format of writing just because it imposes deadlines, honestly.  on competition... well... i like looking at the win/loss/draw records?  i think that's about all i got anymore, but maybe that's a personal problem i should talk to somebody about.

Yer set in a fight against someone else. Why wouldn't you try to win?

Quote from: CHINasty on July 16, 2011, 02:58:34 PM
I honestly think championships, titles and rankings should play more of a role in things. Yea, we're here to write but this is still set up in a competitive atmosphere where 2 people go head to head in and out of character.

That's not the point here though.  I mean, you can consider your w/l record feedback on your writing, but we're not really trying to one up each other here.  A lot of us are trying to write the best stuff we can so we all can engaged in each others stories and immersed in the world.

It's more like an RPG without stats than an efed, really.

I see yer point and this is why I like this place. But, if it weren't meant to be competitive in any concept then why is it centered around a fight between two individuals?

Quote from: CHINasty on July 17, 2011, 12:19:00 AM
Yer set in a fight against someone else. Why wouldn't you try to win?

Storytelling.  For example:

Lilah was supposed to be a complete rookie at the beginning of this, so her winning all the time because Kore is a great writer was a story issue.  How does this total newb keep beating hardened fighters?  Well, we fumbled with it a bit and made sure she won matches because her opponents made mistakes or made it clear in her fighting that she was inexperienced.  

Or also for example,

A long time ago, talking about a year or so here, my character was in The Circuit against his own will.  Now, in the story, I needed him to lose a match so that the repercussions of him losing while the man "sponsoring" him (read: forcing him to fight by threatening to kill his boyfriend) still had control.  Now, I ended up getting beat before it was an issue, but if that didnt happen, I wouldve asked for a loss to demonstrate that aspect of the story.

Quote from: CHINasty on July 17, 2011, 12:21:18 AM
I see yer point and this is why I like this place. But, if it weren't meant to be competitive in any concept then why is it centered around a fight between two individuals?

Well, one, convenient world building.  It's the environment these characters exist in and that drives story.  Two, when this place started, a lot of people were coming from efeds and the set-up was an easy way to transition them since they were familiar with the structure, and three, like I said earlier, OOC, winning and losing is a good way of gauging how your readers feel about your work, and that's more of a cumulative thing.  One loss might not be a big deal, but if you're 1-4 you might want to consider changing things up or asking for feedback, etc.

because the characters are fighters?

because in a general way it's fun to match writing pieces up and see who comes out, even if there isn't that intense strive-to-win shit you get in efeds?  i've used the phrase "competitive creative writing game" for this place before.

i think... it's nice to win, but it's not the point of it for most of us anymore?

win/loss stats are nice to keep up, but even then... whether you win or lose depends on who you're booked against.  an almost-even win/loss after taking on Lisa, Tim, Joyce, and Mike regularly would mean a lot more to me than a 1000/3 stat from having a string of bottom-card bookings against noshowing flakes?

why am i ending all my sentences with question marks?  have i already moved to Australia and just don't realise it yet?  the heck?

lol

Well yea, I can see taking a loss if you're working an angle and want to lose. But, what if someone wants to do the best they can to see if they can be the best on the block, how does that work? I know this place is different from your average E-Fed, that's why I'm here. I honestly like the set up of underground fighting but can anyone here seriously say they don't want to win or at least try their best to? If I were in a match and it was planned for me to lose then I'd be cool if I knew about it up front. But if it were to happen when I was actually trying to win without knowing the outcome then I'd be a lil' upset. Back to the point tho. I think another title would be good for the place. Gives people more options to base their story off of.

Either way, I finally believe I'm ready to commit to this place fulltime. I've had my eye on this place from its start. I'm more than happy to work with you all for the greater outcome of an overall story but being competitive also drives me to write better.

Carter, I think you are misunderstanding what they mean. In-Character, sure, most of these characters want to win. Their motivations are their own. Out of character, it is a little bit different. Do I like winning? Sure, it means on that given event, the judges decided that what I wrote was marginally better than my competition. However, more often than not, the decision between who wins and loses is so close that it can literally go either way. We all have our own stories going. Our motivation is continuing those stories. The fights are simply the universe that holds those stories together.

And we've angled a fight what... NEVER in more than two years? Pretty sure that's the number of times.

In character, some of my guys want to win. Jackson, for example, because he is obsessed with that.

Collins, however, would rather beat the shit out of someone, get paid, and vanish back in the shadows until the next time his fight ticket is called. Depends on your story. That's what makes this unique.

But we still have a belt to satisfy those who want to go for that. And once this rp cycle is done, we will have more detailed rankings that will play out the money aspect a bit better for those who care.

From personal experience... the reason I signed a guy here was because his backstory, as I had it in my head from the point of him starting a 'traditional' wrestling or MMA fed, saw him as an underground fighter who'd tried to get out the game, failed, got injured which upset some very nasty people who had invested money in him, and they forced him to turn professional when he recovered. I could have just written that crap into his bio when I joined a fed... OR I could start him here, actually play out his backstory, and get a better grip on the character's mindset while seeing what directions the story went in of its own accord. He won some, he lost some. That was cool - it was fodder for my next roleplay, feeding whether or not he felt like he should be in the Circuit. I know some members here were a bit like, "WTF, this guy's actually referencing his last fight or his next opponent," but it was right for Dale's story even though it might not have been for other people's.

Similarly. V injuring Mark Chapman has made it into the canon of mine and Leese's wrestling fed (although V is an 'unknown assailant,' lol) where Mark is a fighter on their books. It's been referenced on TV and everything. That roleplay wasn't even a competitive piece, it was 'only' a CD, but it's had impact not just here but in a whole different fed. That's why this place is great: it's a true shared story. Both competitive and collaborative storytelling have been around a lot longer than the internet or pro wrestling, after all.

By the way... if the IC owners/backers/associated villains of the circuit ever decide to make an "above board" (cough cough, honest guv) and openly publicised company as another revenue source, Dale is SO there*.


*Even though he doesn't want to be.

Has the idea of having weight divisions been turned down for good? Makes more since and realistic to do fights in weight divisions.

Quote from: CHINasty on July 24, 2011, 04:58:12 PM
Has the idea of having weight divisions been turned down for good? Makes more since and realistic to do fights in weight divisions.

And is VERY limiting match wise when we have this many people playing. Realistically, in the terms of the game, the people watching these fights don't care if Jackson faces Theo Janes or Sinn, because either way it's a fight to the finish that they can bet on. This isn't a system like UFC where that sort of thing matters.